The Soundboard

segway · Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Height of action...

Anybody has any thoughts about the height of the action on a horn. Years ago, I had the action lowered on my old alto sax (Super Action 80). A friend of mine had mentioned it to me so I went to a repair shop and had it done (this is when I lived in Ottawa, Canada). When I got the horn back, I couldn't play anything in tune! Now, obviously this repair man didn't know what he was doing and I went to a different repair shop (where the technician had worked at the Selmer factory in Paris in the 1960's) and fixed it. He set the action back to where it was before and the horn played in tune (well, as well as it could for a SA 80 series I!!). Has anybody had experience with this? Was it successfull? Right now I have a Selmer Refernce 54 which has been setup by one of the top repairman in Montreal and I am very happy with it.

Miles Osland · Guest

JPSaxMan · Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 5 Location: Northeast PA

Actually, the Selmer Super Action 80 Serie II alto and Mark VI tenor I played both had very tight actions and I love the tighter action, even in jazz, on a horn. Of course by tight, I mean keys closer to the toneholes, making them easier to depress than ones that are farther away and stiffer. But this is just me two cents...
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Joel Perkosky
BM.ME Major
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania '11

T2 · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 2 Location: Finland

Miles Osland · Guest

T2 · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 2 Location: Finland

Thanks Miles, that's what I've always thought.

JPSaxMan · Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 5 Location: Northeast PA

Sorry T2, when I said tight, I was thinking of the whole "tight" feeling, like when a rhythm section is "tight", they're kind of glued together...closer to one another, so I was thinking of a tight action being more like a more closed action with a light feel, making it a tighter feel as opposed to a far more open action with a stiff feel, making it less "tight"...dig me? But yeah, I would prefer the closer, lighter action on a horn regardless of style BUT that is just me.
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JP
Joel Perkosky
BM.ME Major
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania '11

segway · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:37 am Post subject:

The reason why I was posting this question is because I felt that it was something that very few people actually talked about. I agree that the way the horn should be set up is the way that suits each players best. I recently went to a local repair shop here in Vancouver and asked to do a basic tune up on my horn. All I asked was that they would fix any leaks and anything else that they could see was "wrong" with the horn. When I got it back, they had changed the height on some of the keys (most noticably on the upper stack). The result is that, not only does my horn feel different but that it changed the intonation of the horn and made it very stuffy!! It seems like the "magic" was sucked out of the horn and they made it worst for me!! My horn was totally free blowing before (as I want it!!!) and now, it feels so stuffy and resistant; I hate it!!!! I guess I'll just have to wait until I go to Montreal and get it setup again by the original guy!

segway · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Update...

I finally went to see a new repairman here in Vancouver to look at my horn and as I thought, the horn was not setup properly by the previous repairman. There were lots of leaks and some keys were setup to high (the G key in particular). As soon as I played the first few notes, it became clear to me how right I was about the horn. The new repairman made it play like it used to and made some improvements overall with the action and adjusted spring tensions. The horn not only plays great but it also plays more in tune!! The stuffyness is gone and the horn is very free blowing now. This new repairman used to live in New York and used to fix Michael Brecker's horn; I guess there's a good reason why Michael chose to go to him!!

This experience has made me realize how important it is to find the right repairman. Fixing a horn is not just about the mechanics of it but also the experience of the repairman as a player. This new repairman also is a great player and that seems to make a big difference in as far as the overall concept and approach on fixing a horn!

segway · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Update...

I finally went to see a new repairman here in Vancouver to look at my horn and as I thought, the horn was not setup properly by the previous repairman. There were lots of leaks and some keys were setup to high (the G key in particular). As soon as I played the first few notes, it became clear to me how right I was about the horn. The new repairman made it play like it used to and made some improvements overall with the action and adjusted spring tensions. The horn not only plays great but it also plays more in tune!! The stuffyness is gone and the horn is very free blowing now. This new repairman used to live in New York and used to fix Michael Brecker's horn; I guess there's a good reason why Michael chose to go to him!!

This experience has made me realize how important it is to find the right repairman. Fixing a horn is not just about the mechanics of it but also the experience of the repairman as a player. This new repairman also is a great player and that seems to make a big difference in as far as the overall concept and approach on fixing a horn!

segway · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Update...

I finally went to see a new repairman here in Vancouver to look at my horn and as I thought, the horn was not setup properly by the previous repairman. There were lots of leaks and some keys were setup to high (the G key in particular). As soon as I played the first few notes, it became clear to me how right I was about the horn. The new repairman made it play like it used to and made some improvements overall with the action and adjusted spring tensions. The horn not only plays great but it also plays more in tune!! The stuffyness is gone and the horn is very free blowing now. This new repairman used to live in New York and used to fix Michael Brecker's horn; I guess there's a good reason why Michael chose to go to him!!

This experience has made me realize how important it is to find the right repairman. Fixing a horn is not just about the mechanics of it but also the experience of the repairman as a player. This new repairman also is a great player and that seems to make a big difference in as far as the overall concept and approach on fixing a horn!

Miles Osland · Guest

Voiceman1000 · Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Posts: 16777212 Location: San Diego, CA

Too true, Miles & John, too true...

My repairman here in San Diego is an old big band player (he's STILL kickin' it, by the way, and he's 84!!!! and cat can PLAY!!!) who owns his own music store up here in the North County called Oceanside Music Supply, and everybody I know goes to him.

Cat's MAGIC with a horn. I've seen him working on and fixing the most messed up, dropped, dented, dinged, twisted, bent beautiful old classic Bueschers and Kings and Selmers and SMLs, and EVERY player here knows and loves him! Yup, no doubt about it, repairmen were NOT all created equal. Most are trained to be generalists, so that they can work on all kinds of instruments including trumpets, tubas and guitars... Because of the immense complexity of our instrument, and the trickiness with making any sort of even minor little adjustment, we need a specialist, someone who KNOWS saxophones inside and out, has years of experience, and yes, a player also is the best combo.

On key height: funny, isn't it, that Americans tend to have such different preferences on instrument action? I personally also like the more open and harder/tighter springed action. I think the intensity of playing jazz, blues, and rock tends to naturally (and unconciously) cause us to depress the keys harder. It just "feels good".

But while I was reading through this thread, I couldn't help but be struck by the fact that this sounds virtually identical to how pianists describe piano action. Prior to Steinway coming up with the Renner action 100 years ago, all of the great European piano makers had pretty much gone with what was called the Viennese action, which had the hammers striking the strings AWAY from the player towards the back of the piano (vs. Renner's coming up towards the player/front of the piano). These Viennese actions were significantly lighter touch actions, preferred by the European great classical masters and virtuosos. But the Americans couldn't hang with that, and MUCH preferred the much much stiffer/stronger Steinway action, because we were playing not just classical but of course jazz, blues, etc... And we know the rest of the story: the whole world now plays the Renner action, and stiffer, and the Viennese action has gone the way of the do-do.

I think it's all about the music. The genres that we tend to favor here, and the styles that those genres require, tends to induce more passionate and intense playing. (I'm not saying Beethoven and Chopin weren't passionate, but hey, they didn't have Steinway and Renner either, did they? lol...).

Just my thoughts,
Scott
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